Hello Andrew. I have just finished reading your account of the search. What a sobering and emotional experience it must be for friends and family. Thank you for giving us all an opportunity to hear and see the many details of the search that we may not have known otherwise. Elvira

I am amazed at the attention to detail you've included in this tale. You have brought the story to life. Names have faces now and I shall always remember Dan and Sue.

Thanks for sending this link to me. I read every bit of it.

Thank you, all, for the positive feedback. I'm glad that it gives a glimpse of what it is like to be up there, because that is often lacking in descriptions. ...Andrew

My son just came up to me and what would normally be an annoying request for something to drink, gave me pause and I gave him a huge hug. He's here now, but you never know what the future holds for any of us. Thanks for this - it is a true testament to love and duty, and although ultimately tragic and enormously emotional, it also reveals the preciousness of life today. All the best.

Thanks Andrew--what an excellent piece, especially since we were up there a year before and tried our own (unsuccessful) attempt on the mountain before heading down the Korok ( http://canoe.ca/labrador2001 ). We too experienced the sudden changes of weather--snowing the beginning of August--and know how strong the winds are that blow off the Labrador Sea, especially at that elevation. It's nice to finally have some closure to this event Thanks again for telling this story

Andrew: The account of the search conducted by you and your friends left me with emotion and compassion. There are always various dangers when entering areas where the forbidden landcape requires the most utmost careful preparations. I could feel from your narrative the beauty you could still experience - as I also did when we went hiking in the U.S. National Parks in the desert area of South Western USA a few years ago Thanks for sharing your experiences with me. DAD

Andrew, what can I say? An excellent recounting of an excellent adventure. Is this what you were doing in your tent all that time? I thought you were being anti-social but it turns out you were remembering stuff for us. All I can say is, well done! Who woulda thought you can pack ten days adventure into a mere three hour read. I don't know the last time I read something for three hours. I promise not to make it a habit. I also promise not to make environmental terrorism a habit either. But the fire was warm wasn't it????????????!!!! Stay safe Andrew! John

Well done, Andrew! I still think you are crazy for that traverse, over loose rock, and 300 vertical metres above the Labrador glacier. One slip and you were toast! Maybe a bounce or two, but you would have hit the glacier with a dull thud! For the others reading this - my feet, they are much better. Ouch! Be safe, Fran?s... Stay in touch.

Quite a read and a wealth of detail! Thank you for posting all of it. It brings back memories of my own first visit to the area. Back in 1987 six of us canoed from south of Nain (the Taverner could not make it through the ice to Nain on that trip) to Kangiqsualujjuaq (George River) by way of Nachvak Fiord and the Korok River. We spent several days camped inland with a base camp up in the McCormick Creek valley (in the Torngats), taking day trips to a number of peaks. Peter Schimek and I went to the top of of Mount Caubvick / D'Iberville. (Some of us also did Cladonia or Gneissberg or Cirque). We arrived there on July 26, 1987. Even then when it rained one day near sea level it snowed in the peaks. In August the weather becomes more and more unpredictable and hostile. Dan and Susan were there a bit late in the season (August 11) to my thinking and perhaps were hammered by cold wet weather and became hypothermic while exposed on top. Under such conditions even an easy route down becomes treacherous and accidents are much more likely. Our approach was easier than theirs, from the south along the narrow Minaret Ridge (in the attached photos) and I think I went up the Minaret Glacier from our base camp. At the time there was some fresh slushy summer snow on top (rain in the valley) and that made it a bit awkward. But it was not a difficult or technical climb. There is lot of loose rock and I remember trying to always deliberately make sure I had both a handhold and a foothold, in case one gave away along the Minaret Ridge. I am struck when reading about other tragic events (like the Hubbard Wallace one at the turn of the last century) how it often is a string of unfortunate events or decisions that can compound on each other and so end in the tragedy. Dan and Susan. They picked the harder route, they were a bit late in the season, bad weather caught them, they had an accident(?), Susan had to try a down route she did NOT go up on and so was not familiar with it, and WHY was the satellite phone left behind in base camp? Was that deliberate or an oversight? (It was a serious mistake). With it on the mountain the tragic outcome probably could have been averted. It may well be that the real story will always remain unknown and all we can do is speculate on the details. It?ery sad when those who love the wilderness die there in the prime of their life. But I have always held that I would far better that for myself than to be in a fatal car pileup on the 401.

Andrew, you did a great thing by posting this on your web site and in telling it the way you did. I am forwarding it to many of my friends. Hope to meet you someday. Bill Pollock

I have finally gotten through the entire story and photos! How incredible! All aspects of this trip are beyond my imagination. Andrew, thank you so much for all you have done and thank you to the entire team. Unfortunatley we will never know what really happened to Sue and Dan. But I guess all that is important now is that they are both back home resting peacefully. Again thank you everybody.

A few words from one of the "canoeists" you met on your quest, including an update as to what happened to us! When we planned our trip last year the LAST thing we expected to encounter was a large group of people (your search team). We had thought it would be us, the bears and the caribou. Meeting your crew and learning about your "mission" was however a very enriching experience. Although our own little "search and rescue" experience seemed like a waste of time in retrospect, we were operating on the principle of better being safe than sorry, trying to be as conservative as possible (after making the initial error of losing sight of each other). In the end we learned a valuable lesson without serious adverse consequences. We cannot thank you guys enough for your unselfish assistance when we asked. That night will also certainly be remembered for the incredible overhead display in the sky - seeing the flittering ghost-like northern lights made me think the spirit of Torngatsuak was was playing a trick on us! What happened to Dan and Sue was an unfortunate outcome for what would have been an incredible trip for them. After leaving the Koroc campsite (at the foot of the "Valley of the Lost" as I like to call that unnamed valley leading to the southern approaches of mt. Iberville) we leisurely canoed the koroc, stopping to climb several unnamed peaks lining the Koroc valley leading to outstanding views - I can see why Quebec wants to make this region a park. The river is relatively easy to canoe, with only 3 portages, the longest being 750m. The other rapids can be ran, dragged or lined. There are long sections of swift current, making passage through many sections quite rapid.

In many ways, comforting that the end of the journey for Sue and Dan could be explained - and in such a beautiful way with happy pictures of them at the summit. Sadly, from the account it seems they could possibly have been saved had time not be wasted. I would like to congratulate you on eventually finding Sue and Dan and illustrating the saga - a great achievement.

Bonjour Andrew I am one of the archaeologists who visit you. I just read your article on your trip in the Torngat really good. It brings back good memories.

Hello Andrew, Danny was our cousin...We want to thankyou for the great work you did.Your dedication to danny and Susan was heartwarming.Your documentary gave was a precise agenda to what happened...Danny was a good person and he was dearly loved. We truly believe that he enjoyed every second of life.We will never forget them.They will be missed but never forgotten. Thankyou once again for your hard work. Brenda & Christine

Hello Andrew John Howie,part of the search team is a good friend of mine.He told me all about the adventure you shared together,but seeing the pictures,and the maps gives a whole perspective on what probably happened thst fatefull day. Thank you for spelling out what John was telling me about.It was well written,well photographed,and overall "well done" You gave a very powerfull account to a tragic story. Ed Fletcher

Hey there, I'm a friend of Susan's sister. Thank you for letting the world know how amazing their story is. Liz

Andrew, We are friends of Susan's sister, Amanda. The story of Dan and Susan is a powerful one. You do an excellent job reviewing their trip and providing plausible scenarios. Unfortunately, we will never know what really happened. I do know that this story, and thoughts of life and love, will stay with us forever. James and Rebecca

Andrew, Your website and account of Dan and Sue's story is really an outstanding acomplishment. I really understand the need for everyone involved to have some closure and understanding of what happened in the Torngats. I have a special interest in Dan and Sue's tradjety since I have worked in Nachvak Fjord for the past two summers. I'm a graduate student in archaeology at Memorial University in St. John's. I was at Nachvak when Dan and Sue were lost, and we picked up Katherine and Jim on the south side of the Fjord and shared the ride to nain with them. They seemed glad to be safe and sound but were obviously worried about Dan and Sue. As a matter a fact, I often thought about them over this past winter as I thought about returning to the Torngats again. As others on this message board have said, we'll likely never really know the event thats transpired up to their deaths and the amount of strength, determination, and bravery they showed trying to survive. I vividly remember the fierce winds and stormy weather around the 10th of August last year. As I think about it, I can't even fathom what conditions were like in the mountains. When the weather did clear there was a new layer of snow visible on the high peaks to the south of our camp. While the Torgats are simply an amazing place, this unfortunate event reminds us that there is a very fine line between beauty and danger in this area.

Thank you for sharing this incredibly emotional story. My wife and I have done a number of remote wilderness canoe trips alone together, and your account of Dan and Susan?tory has struck a chord in me that I know will never leave. My wife and I love each other very much, as Dan and Sue obviously did, and we have shared many awesome ?ote??ments together just like Dan and Sue?ummit. Unfortunately, we also shared a dreadful event 3 years ago on a remote canoe trip, where my wife fell backwards onto the jagged edge of a broken tree stump. She could barely walk and we feared that she had internal bleeding. We were 3 days from help, and I was so driven to ???e problem that I gambled on a number of crucial events. Miraculously, the gambles landed in our favor, which allowed us to get her to the emergency room in 2 very long and painful days. I am still haunted by what could have happened on our trip if any one of my gambles did not pay off. In retrospect, I believe that my gambles actually placed us in greater danger and I regret taking them. The lure of wild places still consumes us as nothing else can, and despite the dangers, we are still compelled to venture into the unknown, but with an ever-increasing amount caution. Again, thanks or sharing this story, for I know it helps all of us who choose to travel these regions.

I don't like your website. You're not that great.

We have this morning been reading again your website, and the many responses and wish to add our comments. First of all we thank everyone involved for everything that was done to help us find some answers to the horrible events of August 2003. We are overwhelmed by the kindness and dedication and helpfullness of them all. The team who went, the people who helped them with the oraganization, Gillette, Susan's co-workers who have been so supportive, the RCMP and Gord Irwin's team and Andrew for such a wonderful article. We love Susan and Dan dearly, they were a beautiful couple, and we will love them and miss them always. They lived their lives to the full and rejoiced in every minute that they spent together.

Andrew: A great piece of high-altitude detective work. Accounts such as yours are vital to mountaineering, for they remind the rest of us of the fine line that separates farce and tragedy. Dan and Sue were clearly unprepared and ill-equipped for the journey that they attempted, and they lacked the skills needed to get off of Minaret Ridge alive. One has to wonder if Dan was a bit dotty in attempting an expedition such as theirs; too bad Sue had the misfortune of being his companion.

Hi, John Thanks for your feedback. I'm not particularly comfortable, however, with your assessments of character. While mistakes may have indeed been made, Dan was certainly not 'dotty', as you put it. We don't know precisely why certain things ended up they way they did, so to draw firm conclusions such as yours is likely somewhat rash. For example, perhaps they just simply forgot the satellite phone back in camp, or perhaps they made the conscious decision to leave it, having discussed the risks of such a decision, and accepting them in advance. If so, then that's not wrong... instead it was simply their choice to accept a certain level of risk. And who are we to judge that? We'll never know exactly what happened, and as a result I think it is bad form to come out swinging with accusatory sentences. When I started off my mountaineering endeavours, I made many little choices that were, in retrospect, unwise. I learned from them, and I believe I've improved my safety skills... but I don't look back and think I was a fool - a bit green, perhaps, but I learned. And, those were the chances I willingly took. To say we've learned from this misfortune, and that it helps outdoorspeople to be more careful is one thing, and totally valid. To make judgements on Dan and Sue's choices in life and for their commitment to each other is, in my opinion, pretty inappropriate.

I first read this story in Toro magazine... and it just went straight to my heart. I have never been rockclimbing, or had any real connection to Dan and Sue in any way... but the story almost brought me to tears. I was obviously effected by it so much that I've decided to research it a little on my own, which brought me to your site. I find the information on your site to be so helpful that it's heartbreaking. I just wanted to write here to thank you for keeping this page up.. and for being a part of such an incredible event. All my best goes to the families of Dan and Sue... and to everyone who was close to them. At least now you have some closure. If you have any extra photographs, I would love to see them. Thanks again.


Steve.

Andrew,

I have just read your story and was impressed by how factual it was and the memories that it brought back.

I was the RCMP member in charge of Nain Detachment at the time when Dan and Susan were first reported missing, and I still often think about what they must have went through.

I really appreciate the comments made by Susan Barnes' parents. While I was in charge of the detachment, another member who was at the detachment, oversaw that investigation and I know that it bothers him to this day.

Between late 2003 and the Spring of 2004, there were many discusions at various levels within the RCMP, and other organizations, in regards to the costs and risks involved with sending a team in to determine what fate had befell Susan and Dan. There were many who felt that the costs and risks were too great to mount what would be a recovery, as opposed to a rescue mission. I left Nain in mid-August 2004, before the team from Parks Canada went in and recovered the remains of Susan and Dan. While we may never know the exact details of what occurred, as seen by Andrew's post, we are able to piece together much of what did occur.

It is my understanding that the Torgats Mountain area where Susan and Dan were hiking is going to be part of a National Park, and that there may be a National Park station staffed in Nain at least during the summer months to oversee it. While we cannot bring Susan and Dan back, if their demise can help implement some changes that will help others in the future, then their passing will not be totally without benefit.

I had spoken to the Ricketts over the course of the investigation. In some areas in the US, climbers going into certain areas are required to sign out a locator beacon to assist rescuers in locating them in the event of a mishap, lessening the risk to both the wearers and any potential rescuers. I strongly suggested that beacons be acquired and kept in Nain for this purpose as that is where most climbing in the area is staged from.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of Susan and Dan, as well as their friends and co-workers.

Kevin Baillie
RCMP Charlottetown

Great job on the site! I happened to be surfing the net and was able to locate this information.

After reading each and every message posted, I was surprised when I saw Sgt Kevin Baillie's message posted recently. It is good to see that I am not the only RCMP officer posted in Nain that still thinks about this incident.

I am still posted in Nain Labrador and was working when the initial call came from John that Dan and Susan were missing and had not made their flight as scheduled. I followed each and every piece of the investigation and had spoken to both families numerous times on the telephone. Needless to say, it was gut wrenching to be here in Nain during the attempt search and the successful search a year later. I met with the Parks Canada searchers and Sgt Randy Mercer when they were going to the summit to look for Susan and Dan. I was able to keep in contact with them throughout the search and was elated when both were finally located. Although making that phone call to the families was tough, I would have to say it was easier than the ones during the previous year.

All through the year since they went missing, I found myself thinking, wondering and questioning everything. When the pictures from the camera found at the scene were developed and on my desk, I was able to sit back, see the smiles on the faces of Dan and Susan and put faces to the names I had thought so much about.

Even after 12 years of police work,involving many different things, I know this incident will stick with me for the remainder of my service.

No word, no voice can really relate this sad event of my life... unfortunatly, I was there, on august 11 and 12, very close of them, but in an helpness position...this drama is a lesson for everyone in the futur! The park's manager will have to take it in account.

Yes, the TORNGAIT can reveal the existence of bad spitit...
...an inuit's legend you said? Really?

Alain H?rt,
Qu?c'parks planner in Nunavik

No word, no voice can really relate this sad event of my life... unfortunatly, I was there, on august 11 and 12, very close of them, but in an helpness position...this drama is a lesson for everyone in the futur! The park's manager will have to take it in account.

Yes, the TORNGAIT can reveal the existence of bad spitit...
...an inuit's legend you said? Really?

Alain H?rt,
Qu?c'parks planner in Nunavik

Hi Andrew:
I'm getting strong enough to start reading about the children, we lost in the Torngats. Your story show, they did what they loved to do and the kindness they where carring with them always. Nobody knows better than the parents of both sides what those two soul mates where in real life, but now peoples knows more about the most beautiful loving children. You did a great story and I'm sure that Dan and Susan will watch over you and also give their approval in the details, even without being in the snowstorm they encountered in 2003, keep up the good work.

I watched the W5 account on TV yesterday, and was struck by the lack of critical investigation or reportage.

Why was there no interview with the American climbers that flew in with Dan and Sue?

Why was there no report on the autopsies supposedly performed the day after the bodies were recovered?

What was the cost to the taxpayer of the two searches for the bodies?

What was the amount expended by the private search party of 18 who turned out to be entirely superfluous?

One has to wonder whether W5 gave editoral veto to to the parents in return for their co-operation....

The entire tone of the "documentary" is disturbing. Even a cursory review of the undisputed facts forces one to conclude that this climb was conducted in a reckless and stupid manner. It seems incredible that one would have a satellite phone and not arrange to check in with it at least once a day. had such an arrangement been in place, presumably the alarm would have been raised within a couple of days of the accident, instead of two weeks on. Climbing this mountain without the phone and without sufficient gear to overnight on the mountain seems insane.

Yet these two fatal lapses, and the failure of any of the four parents to contact police in a timely fashion is simply passed over in the account. Instead the climb is depicted as a gloriously heroic undertaking. "Do this at home, kids" might well be the subtitle of this piece.

This morning I searched the WEB for more information, and found this site, with its impressive volume of reportage. Strangely, though, there is no concise summary of the facts. Instead one is forced to rummage through a lot of verbiage looking for the crucial information (a task I haven't completed yet). Thus I still haven't found out whether the autopsy was ever released.

Much of the sentiment expressed on these pages echos the sentimental and irresponsible nonsense of the W5 report. Nor do any of the experienced mountaineers raise the question of how many lives could have been saved if the funds expended on this quixotic search and recovery had instead been invested in buying satellite phones and/or gps beacons to be rented to climbers and other backcountry users at cost by Parks Canada and provincial parks and forestry agencies.

I would also touch on the psychopathology of "highpoints" contests. What a pathetically shallow ambition to squander your life on! If mountain climbers want to get some insight into their propensity to toy with death (often at great expense to the public!), this sillyness might be a good focus point.

Finally, I would point out that the two links at the very bottom of the Torngat page are both dead ends displaying the following text:

*******
Sunday,February 20,2005
a l a v i g n e . h o m e i p . n e t
SITE CONTENTS
Home
Outdoors & Travel
Motorsports
Gaming
Aviation
Technical
File Downloads
Miscellaneous











Attention: You have attempted to go to the following URL:

/Outdoors/TripReports/Torngats2004/nojs.jsp



This URL (aka web address) either does not exist, or access to it is not permitted.

However, based on this URL, the nearest related and
valid web address within this site is

/Outdoors/TripReports/Torngats2004/index.jsp

Click on the address to go there now.

Web Page & Design Copyright 2001-2005 alavigne.homeip.net



*********

When one follows the alternate link provided, one ends up exactly where on started. The one link is supposed to lead to this forum (the only forum I've found with posting more recent than Sept. 2004), the other is the "feedback" link, presumably for reporting things like broken links. Is this a subtle device meant to freeze the current discussion or at least to limit it to those in the know?

To actually access this discussion forum one has to click on the "message board forum" link on the sidebar.

Hi Andrew,

I have searched for information since hearing that Dan and Susan were missing. I was with them the day that they met and watched their relationship grow for another 3 years during university. I have never met a couple more in love and devoted to each other. That kind of love comes around once in a lifetime if you're lucky!

I'm so glad that W5 emphasized this aspect of their lives and did not, as the last writer complained, critically examine the money spent on searching for them twice or the errors they may have made. Just because they took risks beyond what many people would be unwilling to do or made decisions/oversights such as leaving the satellite phone behind, does not mean that their families and friends do not deserve to have answers and closure.

This website, the Toro article, and the W5 special have not answered all of my questions but they have left me feeling more satisfied now knowing that Dan and Susan reached a life goal, experienced the rarest of love and had the love of families and friends who would do whatever was necessary to find answers and recover their bodies. In their short lives, they experienced more than most people. The end of the W5 special gave me comfort that they are back together and I can get past the images of them on a cold mountain.

Did they make mistakes? Unfortunately perhaps they did, but what adventurer doesn't! I live in the Rocky Mountains and watch many mountaineers, climbers, skiiers, etc. test their limits everyday, make decisions and make mistakes. I'm not going to be an armchair judge. It doesn't change anything. People will continue to push their limits, experience life to its fullest, and accidents will continue to happen. We're only human afterall and nature is more powerful.

Thankfully 18 climbers didn't judge them. Instead they accepted that the tragedy happened and were willing to help find them for the sake of Dan and Susan's family and friends. Thank you to the rescue team!

Thanks also to W5 for portraying the good with the bad. I now have many images of Dan and Susan extremely happy to replace all the horrific images that have haunted me for the past year.

In case their families read this, my heart goes out to you. I hope you're beginning to move past the pain.

Linda Green
Calgary

hi Andrew great story that seems to have a very spritual meaning in all the events that ocuuried for start to finish.

Andrew. Thanks.

I'm a paddler who hopes to one day make a trip to this area. Your account provides as accurate a picture of what happened as any could, and with the emotion that the subject deserves.

Yes, mistakes were made, but we all make mistakes. Susan even posted to the canoeing forum that I frequent, about their trip while they were planning it (small world). I can only hope that if something like that were to happen to me, people would go to the same lengths. It's not about laying blame on those who made mistakes or had bad luck. They've paid enough.

Your tension with the RCMP and Parks Canada is not to be dismissed, but I would think that when push came to shove, it is good that they found both Sue and Dan. If my best friend died somewhere I would surely try an expedition such as the one you were on. However, I cannot imagine how bad it would be, to be the person to find my best friend dead. Your expedition was still worthwile, without what would have been the worst part.

I look forward to one day attempting this peak. If nature allows me the priviledge of making it up, I'll spend some time reflecting on Sue and Dan. They do look so happy in the photos at the summit.

Cheers,
-ben

Hi, Achim

Thanks for your input. I certainly get the sense that you have a strong opinion on this...!

Let me try and answer some of your questions.

Q1. Why was there no interview with the American climbers that flew in with Dan and Sue?

Answer: My understanding is that Catherine and Jim had turned down any requests to participate in the documentary. Perhaps they had had enough of the hoopla surrounding this whole event.

Q2. Why was there no report on the autopsies supposedly performed the day after the bodies were recovered?

Answer: We were actually told of the result of the autopsies. It just isn't written into the web writeup (well, actually, one little bit is, on page 11 of the main trip log: "Apparently Sue was found curled up in a fetus position where she was found on the cliff, and had no broken bones."). The result of the autopsies, as far as I know, is that they neither of them had any broken bones. Since they had been out exposed to the elements for a year, it was impossible to determine whether any soft-tissue injuries had occured (although that is my speculation, that Dan had suffered a soft-tissue injury like a torn ligament or something).

Q3. What was the cost to the taxpayer of the two searches for the bodies?

Answer: I have no idea. I was a member of Jack and Roland's private search team, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the public search effort. Probably a fair amount, though, wouldn't you think?

Q4. What was the amount expended by the private search party of 18 who turned out to be entirely superfluous?

Answer: Quite a bit. But it was our own money, along with money donated by the family and others. I'm really curious about this question. Does it imply that the private search expedition shouldn't have gone? It is my belief that the fact our expedition was taking place may have itself contributed to the effort put in by the RCMP / Parks Canada. And, even if that was not so, redundancy is always useful in search and rescue. We had a team headed to precisely where Dan was located and were less than an hour away when Parks Canada showed up in their helicopter. (BTW, this _is_ talked about in the trip report).


Some more comments:

This page is first and foremost a TRIP LOG of my trip to the Torngats. That is why there is a lot of [for you] unnessecary verbiage. However, I did expand the scope of the page into the realm of general documentary. To my mind, the only major things I left out were things like autopsy details, specific cost amounts, and my "judgement" of what happened. At the time, I didn't feel it was my place, nor did I feel comfortable making judgemental statements about anyone. Actually, I still don't feel it is my place to say.

In fact, although it is not a 'concise summary', the information that one needs to evaluate this incident ARE in my texts. To wit:


-Dan and Sue chose to go just themselves, instead of with a larger group.

-Dan and Sue chose to leave their Satellite phone in their tent, rather than with them on the mountain.

-Dan and Sue chose to continue over a razor-sharp, loose-rock ridge in conditions of very poor visibility, very poor ground conditions (ie- slippery), and low temperature.

-Dan and Sue, although they had some outdoor experience, had very little experience with this sort of remote wilderness and this sort of climbing terrain (not really explicitly stated, but this can be implied from my very brief account of Dan's climbing experience).

We don't know what the precise mechanism of Dan's injury was, so we can't comment on that. There are many possibilities.

I know from my own personal mountaineering experiences that I would have turned around at the start of that knife edge in those conditions. But that's ME. Maybe 10 years ago when I was less experienced I would have given it a go. Or, maybe I would have been too chicken and turned back even then. Who knows?

However, they chose to go onwards, and that was their prerogative. I have no problem with that. If even one of the points I raised above had not occured, Dan and Sue would be with us and not any of this big brou-ha-ha surrounding the event would have occurred. And they would have probably gained a lot of important experience on what to do and what not do to when mountaineering. Sometimes learning is trial and error.

Sounds like you have a beef with the fact that people (both public and private) went up there to look for people that you think did something unwise. We are humans, and humans will often respond with compassion even in the face of some action that seemed unwise. Maybe the beef you have is that some of your taxpayer money was spent in this endeavour? Where does the responsibility of 'the state' end in matters such as this? This is a gray area, and always will be.

Anyway, in summary, I appreciate the points you raised. Perhaps I should have gone more into 'analysis' mode at the end of my report. I chose not to. I do find your tone a bit accusatory, though, and that irritates me slightly. But, you have the right to your view.

Thanks for the info on the broken links. Unfortunately, I can't reproduce it myself. Can you tell me specifically from what page you clicked on the link and got this behaviour? (And NO, this is not a "subtle device meant to freeze the current discussion or at least to limit it to those in the know" - it's a software bug in my dynamic page generation).

Thanks for your time, and reading my little response rant.

...Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Last things first.

The broken link is on your Torngat Index page, here's the URL:

alavigne.net/Outdoors/TripReports/Torngats2004/index.jsp

At the bottom of the page there are two buttons, the one on the right says "message board", the one on the left "feedback", both lead to the broken link message offering an alternative page, which turns out to be the index page one started on.

Unfortunately, I don't have the advantage of quoting your post, so I may have to come back to fill in the gaps in a later posting.

1. yes, my original posting in this thread was judgmental and accusatory, though you were the least of my targets

2. yes, I believe the RCMP-Parks Canada indulged in a shameful waste of scarce resources for the sake of nothing more than public relations. I find Parks Canada's role in this particularly hypocritical, in that they have refused to lift a finger to facilitate potentially life-saving communications here in the mountain parks.

For instance, there is a 100-km stretch of highway which runs through the middle of Kootenay National Park, connecting the Columbia-Windermere Valley, where I live, with the Trans-Canada highway leading to Calgary. There is no cell-phone coverage anywhere on this one-hour drive, and I'm told that the reason is that Parks Canada steadfastly refuses to allow the erection of a single telephone repeater.

Only a few years ago, before satellite telephony became portable, Parks Canada made loud noises about the costs of search and rescue operations for backcountry hikers, going so far as to suggest mandatory insurance to pay for such rescues. Yet, now that the technology is available, not just to improve the chances of rescuing people quickly, but also to avoid the useless cost and danger to rescuers of unnecessary searches, Parks Canada has done nothing to facilitate the use of this technology - q

Hi Andrew,

Last things first.

The broken links are on your Torngat Index page, here's the URL:

alavigne.net/Outdoors/TripReports/Torngats2004/index.jsp

At the bottom of the page there are two buttons, the one on the right says "Message Board", the one on the left "Feedback form", both lead to the broken link message offering an alternative page, which turns out to be the index page one started on.

I don't have the advantage of quoting your post, so I may pass over some of your comments inadvertently...

1. yes, my original posting in this thread was judgmental and accusatory, though you were the least of my targets. Since then, I've read everything through, and realize that, had the alarm been raised a day after the climb, the pair might both have been saved.

The word "tragedy" doesn't fit this incident in the least, anymore than it would a drunk drowing nose-down in a three-inch puddle of water. It's merely pathetic.

And the fact that these were adults with considerable backcountry experience, who knew full well that others might end up risking life and limb to locate them makes their reckless conduct inexcuseable.

To call not checking in daily when you have the means, and not taking your communications link along on such a climb a plausible and respectable "judgment call", as you and several other posters do, is itself irresponsible. It promotes such behaviour, and may result in needless loss of other backcountry users and/or their would-be rescuers in future.

2. yes, I believe the RCMP-Parks Canada indulged in a shameful waste of scarce resources for the sake of nothing more than public relations. I find Parks Canada's role in this particularly hypocritical, in that they have refused to lift a finger to facilitate potentially life-saving communications here in the mountain parks.

For instance, there is a 100-km stretch of highway which runs through the middle of Kootenay National Park, connecting the Columbia-Windermere Valley, where I live, with the Trans-Canada highway leading to Calgary. There is no cell-phone coverage anywhere on this one-hour drive, and I'm told that the reason is that Parks Canada steadfastly refuses to allow the erection of a single cellphone repeater.

Only a few years ago, before satellite telephony became portable, Parks Canada made loud noises about the costs of search and rescue operations for backcountry users, suggesting they should have to carry liability insurance to pay for such rescues. Yet, now that the technology is available, not just to improve the chances of rescuing people quickly, but also to avoid the cost and danger to rescuers of completely unnecessary searches, Parks Canada has done nothing to facilitate the use of this technology.

I've heard that in Western Europe, the great majority of backcountry rescues are now initiated by a cellphone call for help. I hardly think Parks Canada is unaware of this. They could massively improve the safety of backcountry users by allowing the strategic placement of cellphone repeaters on the one hand, and by buying satellite phones for at-cost rental to hikers on the other. Why don't they?

I suggest it's because they never gave a damn about the cost of search and rescue when they agitated for insurance, nor do they care about the safety of hikers and climbers. Their real priority is keeping the backcountry free of the hoi polloi, so that they and their buddies, the hard-core users, can continue to access the backcountry whenever they want, without having to "take a number".



Since I believe the government recovery operation in the Torngat was an obscene waste of scarce resources, I can hardly applaud the private expedition for any role it might have played in instigating that. As for the money expended by these private rescuers - well, I firmly believe in the right to spend your money any way you want. But don't expect me to tip my hat to such self-indulgence. I find it a classic indication of the twisted priorities of the mountain-climbing community that it can find the personal and financial resources to bury the dead while doing virtually nothing to promote survival of the living.

It struck me that the only poster in this thread to make a postive suggestion in support of better safety was RCMP Sgt. Baillie with his pitch for the use of gps beacon locators. Good for you Sergeant!

As for your site, I'd like to end by saying that you've done well in providing (most of) the background information and the venue for this forum, and I accept your statement that the broken links are unintended.

I wish I had the computer skills (or the time to learn them) to run such a site myself.

One service that I'd like to provide to backcountry users in my area is the ability to post a password-protected trip itinerary that would be decrypted and released to RCMP/SAR only at the date and time specified by the hikers, and could be completely erased by them on their (timely) return. I have seen one commercial site that promised an itinerary registry service, but without any privacy safeguards, suggesting that the information might be sold and/or traded.

Obviously such an arrangement requires more security skills than an average website manager can muster. But perhaps this post will interest one of your readers with such skills and the motivation to make the backcountry safer for everybody.

Achim

Achim:

You sound like you have the capabilities and vocabulary to be a highly intelligent person. One has to wonder why you waste an inordinate amount of time voicing your opinions to someone (or something) which you consider to be of little or no value. Perhaps you should further waste your time speaking to a more official source.

It would appear that you have a great deal of time to 'rip to shreds' a site that is obviously a private website and is basically a place for friends and interested climbers to read about various trips. If you have no respect for climbers or their endeavours why are you so interested in their stories?

As part of the private search team, I take offense by your use of the word superfluous in describing us. As Andrew has stated to you, it is our belief that without us going in, there would not have been a search at all. I assume you think that would be fine with the taxpaying public. Not always does it come down to dollars and cents. Occasionally, something called compassion comes into play. This is something I feel you have no concept of. Sometimes helping out someone who is in need is worth more than anything you can put a monetary price on. The 'need' in this case was two familie's (and countless friends) need to have their family members brought home to have a proper and fitting burial. I hope for your sake that no one in your family ever does anything wrong enough to result in an instance where any money needs to be spent on a rescue attempt, because if your wishes come true, there may not be the resources to accomodate them.

Achim, I'm quite sure that if you read this you will take offense and perhaps offer a rebuttal. At this time, any rebuttal would have to be an apology to all that put forth any effort to bring Dan and Susan home. Actually the biggest apology should be directed towards Dan and Susan themselves. You have been disrespectful towards them offering the word 'pathetic' in regards to them. A good man would keep thoughts like that to himself as it serves absolutely no purpose. Andrew may choose to remain diplomatic in his forum, but you sir, don't deserve the effort I've expended on you!! Thanks for reading. John's rant is over!!

Here here John!! I hope that we don't have to hear another disrespectful word from him! Thank you for your compassion and contribution to bringing Dan and Susan back to their families and to giving us all some peace of mind.

Linda

hi andrew, what is the meaning of the word torngaT. /

>Achim:

>You sound like you have the capabilities and vocabulary to be a >highly intelligent person. One has to wonder why you waste an >inordinate amount of time voicing your opinions to someone (or >something) which you consider to be of little or no value.

Don't you find your position as a mountain climber lecturing someone on "wasting their time" just a bit absurd?


I don't consider my posts here a waste of time. I'm optimist enough to believe reason can prevail if it can find a voice. And this is a natural forum for the criticisms I'm expressing. Everyone here, I'm quite sure, understands my arguments perfectly, even though they may pretend not to.

>Perhaps you should further waste your time speaking to a more >official source.

I address "official sources" at every opportunity. If any are lurking here, I'd be pleased to engage them.


>It would appear that you have a great deal of time to 'rip to >shreds' a site that is obviously a private website and is basically >a place for friends and interested climbers to read about various >trips. If you have no respect for climbers or their endeavours why >are you so interested in their stories?

First of all, I haven't ripped this site to "shreds". In fact, I've expressed my appreciation for the webmaster's efforts. I wish there were more sites like his. I wish knew of sites like this for the disclosure and discussion of other types of outdoor mishaps, such as scuba diving fatalities.

Secondly, I have a natural interest in climbers because I believe they have an inordinate and somewhat unhealthy influence on government policy in the mountain parks.

I feel a lot of mountain climbers risk their lives ostentatiously to demonstrate a courage they don't feel. If they had the courage to challenge the systemic dishonesty and injustice of our society, we'd be living in quite a different world. I don't mean to say that climbers are more cowardly than other people, but perhaps more uncomfortable with their cowardice. And maybe that discomfort is a potential for good if it can be harnessed to serve meaningful goals.

>As part of the private search team, I take offense by your use of >the word superfluous in describing us. As Andrew has stated to you, >it is our belief that without us going in, there would not have been >a search at all.
>I assume you think that would be fine with the taxpaying public.

So you managed to embarass the government into squandering scarce lifesaving resources on the recovery of two bodies. Is that something to be proud of?

>Not always does it come down to dollars and cents.

How true. A similar situation occurred right here in the Columbia-Windermere Valley in the Spring of '93 when a local hunting guide was swept off his horse and drowned while crossing Toby Creek. His body was carried into the Columbia Wetlands, and the local co-ordinator of the Provincial Emergency Program was forced by "public pressure" to resign for not having applied enough of his very limited search and rescue resources to recovering the body. I assume you would have been with the lynch party....


I recall a much more outrageous diversion of public funds when Rick Hansen's "Man in Motion" circus rolled into Alberta. The Alberta government had just made drastic cuts to their assistance to disabled people, but managed to come up with a million dollars for Hansen's pet charity. Apparently, this action didn't hurt the government's popularity. The "taxpaying public" is often dead wrong.

>Occasionally, something called compassion comes into play. This is >something I feel you have no concept of.

I think you're confusing compassion with myopia. I see the larger picture. It's called "perspective".

>Sometimes helping out someone who is in need is worth more than >anything you can put a monetary price on. The 'need' in this case >was two familie's (and countless friends) need to have their family >members brought home to have a proper and fitting burial.

If hundreds of thousands of tsunami survivors can overcome their "need" to see their friends and family have a "proper and fitting burial". I'm sure Dan and Sue's nearest and dearest could have managed also.

>I hope for your sake that no one in your family ever does anything >wrong enough to result in an instance where any money needs to be >spent on a rescue attempt, because if your wishes come true, there >may not be the resources to accomodate them.

Don't you have it backwards? I'M the one arguing against spending rescue resources for body recovery. YOU'RE the one arguing for it. If YOU continue to have YOUR way, there may not be funds for rescuing the living.

I'd be ashamed to have public funds earmarked for rescuing the living spent on recovering my remains or those of my family. And I'd prefer that any energies and generosity generated by my misfortune were employed to lessen the chances of such mishaps befalling others.



>Achim, I'm quite sure that if you read this you will take offense >and perhaps offer a rebuttal.

Why would I take offense? And why wouldn't I respond? This is a discussion forum, not an obituary, isn't it?

>At this time, any rebuttal would have to be an apology to all that >put forth any effort to bring Dan and Susan home. Actually the >biggest apology should be directed towards Dan and Susan themselves. >You have been disrespectful towards them offering the >word 'pathetic' in regards to them.

Real respect is something that is evoked. It's not something that can be bestowed on a whim or out of courtesy. Nor is it something that can be denied to the deserving. What you're talking about is "politeness".

I wonder though, why you pick on that one word, when I used much more critical ones? "Pathetic" means sad, pitiable, and that they certainly were. I simply object to the tragic-heroic depiction of this mishap. I reserve the use of such terms for people like the search pilot and spotter who crashed and died in the Kananaskis Valley of Alberta a few years back while looking for a lost hiker.

>A good man would keep thoughts like that to himself as it serves absolutely no purpose.

I may not be a "good" man, but if I thought my criticisms served no purpose, I certainly wouldn't have made them. I take no pleasure in upsetting the relatives and friends of the deceased, but perhaps I could have presented my analysis more diplomatically. If so, I apologize for that.

>Andrew may choose to remain diplomatic in his forum, but you sir, >don't deserve the effort I've expended on you!! Thanks for reading.

You're welcome.

>John's rant is over!!

excellent!

Achim

Hi, Achim

Ok, I think I know what is going on. I'm thinking you probably have some or all of your javascript turned off, and there is essentially an flaw in those links that causes them to work incorrectly if javascript is turned off. I'll fix that right up later today.

Thanks for pointing it out.

...Andrew

P.S. now that I think of it, this probably affects my other web writeups too.

Hi there.

As far as I know, torngat means 'spirits' in Inuktitut. Also I often hear that the Inuit translate their words for the torngats area into the english phrase 'place of evil spirits'.

...Andrew

Achim:

I question why you choose to dismiss many people?assion for outdoor pursuits, such as mountain climbing, as a waste of time. I am curious as to what you do for a living as well as what you do for fun and enjoyment. This would probably offer great insight into your views and perspectives. I believe you to have a rather large ego with an equally large affection for debate. Personally, I am not a politically minded person and therefore choose not to discuss such topics. I also feel that no matter what I write from here on out, you will take the time to dissect each line and throw it back at me. I don?ave the time and definitely not the desire to argue with you electronically anymore. My whole reason for writing the first ?t?s a reaction to your harsh viewpoints on a story that I have come to feel quite passionate about . You choose not to embrace human emotions, only money and how it is spent. Along the way you will run over anyone that has a viewpoint other than your own and will spare no one?eelings. You even feel fine with telling people that their hobbies are stupid with no purpose. Until you?tried something you have no educated opinion. Maybe you should try going for a walk outdoors and seeing some good in it, rather than condemning those who enjoy to be away from the negativity of people like yourself. There will be no further rebuttals from me on this subject for I feel enough electricity has been wasted on you.

Andrew Lavigne Tue Feb 22 08:38:52 EST 2005


Bingo!

I'm a bit antsy about net security, and routinely run IE5.01 with "active scripting" (aka javascript) disabled except when essential sites (like my bank's) absolutely require it (and then I set it to "prompt" so I don't forget to turn it off again).

>Thanks for pointing it out.

You're welcome.

There are a lot of sites, some of them very large corporate ones, that assume the visitor is running the latest Explorer with all of the default settings and standard plug-ins enabled.

The best of these provide alternate pages, some will warn the visitor that certain browser settings are required, and sometimes one sees a reference to javascript on the bottom line of the browser before a link fails. But all too often the link buttons simply do nothing, or a blank page loads with "done" on the bottom line. Often the webmaster hasn't even provided a workable link to let the visitor report the problem and ask for help.

In your case, link redunancy has saved the day (although some of your visitors clearly wish it hadn't in this instance ;), so you're doing quite well. Keep up the good work!

Achim


PS> I've noted belatedly that an early draft of my second last posting accidentaly got posted before I submitted the final version. If your editorial policy permits this, you're welcome to remove that fragment from the forum. The timestamp is:

Achim Lohse Mon Feb 21 15:54:45 EST 2005

It really doesn't contribute anything to the discussion, except to show that I take some time and care to compose these postings (more than 90 minutes in that instance). You also have my blessing to remove this technical posting from the list or to abbreviate it if you prefer.

Andrew,

I have enjoyed your website for many years now, and many of us at the ACC montreal section use your site and postings as beta for our own endeavours. Please continue posting your trips you inspire us all.

I first heard about the Torngats tragedy from Francois, when he was giving a slide show on a bike trip he finished. When I first read the report I was heartbroken at the tragedy, but I also had an analytical side that questioned what were Dan and Sue thinking when the weather got bad?

After seeing the W5 footage I returned to your site to re-read the whole adventure. The whole time I was re-reading the post I kept hearing Jack Bennett's words in my head "Climbers take care of their own." I then understood the motiviation for the recovery mission. Bringing Dan and Sue home to their parents meant more to them than words can say. I spent many years living on the east coast and I know of many people who lost their loved ones at sea and never had a body to bury. For Roland, Jack, Jim and Catherine, Dan and Sue's parents, and everyone else involved, your recovery mission allowed the circle to be closed. The mission was one of compassion and healing, and was most certainly not a waste of time as one other has posted.

Such rescue and recovery missions are a natural part of our human nature. The act of extending a hand to help out another is deeply ingrained in the biology of our species. It is the root of our ability to build communities. It is the reason why so many fishermen went out to sea in the middle of the night to rescue and recover all those who perished in the Flight 111. Was that a waste of time and expense? Not to the families that lost their loved ones.

As to why Dan and Sue took on such an ambitious project? Because the challenge is there. Because the draw to the mountains and to our waterways is the basis of what makes us Canadian. To say the mountain climbing is a waste of time is a slap in the face of Arthur Wheeler and Elizabeth Parker who stirred up enough support to make a Canadian presence in the mountains. A part of their efforts provided enough Canadian Nationalism to allow some people who live in Kananaskis country to enjoy the benefits of living in Alberta and not Montana.

I salute Dan and Sue's adventurous spirit, and I salute all of you who went after them. Adventurers push the limits of being human and show us all what it is to be human.

-Andrew

PS: COlden trap dyke: thanks for telling us to top out onto the slab higher up. I certainly had no intention about following Luc's route.

PPS: I may get in touch with you about the crazy 8.

-A-

It was interesting reading more details about this matter on this website, and Andrew has served a great public good by his work. I'm going to be critical of Dan and Sue here, not because I'm a grouch, but because I think there are important lessons yet to be learned from this disaster.

For instance, I don't recall previously being informed that neither Sue nor Dan had broken bones. Anyone who has fallen a short distance knows that human bodies, like bags of water, speed up very fast in falls and don't land gently on rocks. So I really don't see how Sue could have fallen 50m down a rocky cliff and not broken anything. Which means she must have downclimbed. It's also very easy to get utterly disoriented in fog.

I haven't read everything in print about this tragedy, but something the discussions only touch on is their preparations for the climb. They carried only one daypack, apparently with minimal contents. The eventual result was that Sue ended up alone, in a violent storm, high on a remote peak, far from help, with no more equipment than you'd take along when going shopping.

It seems they had a thing about travelling lightweight, and this would partly explain why they left the satellite phone behind. But they did take their video camera, which puts their priorities into question. If they thought carrying the phone might make the difference between reaching the top, and not, then their self-aware margin of suitability to make the climb was too thin to justify being there.

Worse, to set off for such a climb, in such a place, even in perfect weather, and not be equipped to spend the night out, is indicative of a level of incompetence or bad judgement that goes beyond "serious". As the more experienced one, Dan would bear the responsibility for this, and amongst the people I hike with, this would be greeted with disbelief. But there's no denying the photographic evidence. Even on simple daytrips to popular local mountains by groups, EVERYONE goes prepared for various eventualities including spending the night out.

This reminds me of the book Fahrenheit -145, in which a group of iffy climbers set out to climb Mt. McKinley in the winter to "make up for a lot of bad climbs". All of them had plodded up the cattle trail on Mt. Rainier, a climb which is cited as proof of Dan's expertise. All but one of them died on McKinley. Among their other stunts, they burned down a group tent at 14,000'.

Whatever the other mysteries and questions about Sue and Dan's judgement, there are no two ways about this aspect. Juxtaposed with the importance they attached to this endeavour, it is indicative of almost pathological incompetence. I'm sorry, they may have been fine people. But if we are to make sense of this tragedy and learn from it, it has to be said. It also makes the lack of attention to this issue puzzling in itself, unless there is a wish to deny the unfortunate truth.

Like the winter climbers on McKinley, it's possible to do a lot of mountaineering and remain incompetent. It's also possible to have one's judgement badly clouded by ambition. For instance, they were driving themselves to produce a video record of climbing the highest points in Canada's regions. This sort of an agenda can result in people doing things they would otherwise not consider.

For instance, I got a video camera last spring. I got the idea of creating a vcr tape of classic flatwater canoe trips in BC. Heading towards the end of the year, I had all the trips I wanted, with the glaring exception of an ocean trip on the west coast. Having a child in a canoe in the fall in the Pacific is something that must be approached with clear judgement, and I struggled with whether my decisions were being affected by my ambition to complete the tape with that special trip.

In the end, it was easy to cancel the coastal trip on the Thanksgiving weekend due to totally unsuitable weather. But we did a trip to west coast islands on the November long weekend because all the pieces seemed to be in place. In the face of a deteriorating weather forecast, we bailed out early, but I got my footage. However, I can't bring myself to say my judgement was completely free of being influenced by the issue of the video.

I've gone on rather long here, but there's something else that needs to be said. Shortsightedness as was evident on Dan's part on the Torngat climb doesn't show up overnight. Anyone who had spent much time with him outdoors, and who was competent themselves should have noticed this. And anyone who was also aware of the seriousness of their plans, should have had the strength of character to flatly tell them to get more experience before tackling something like what they were planning. This can make the difference between losing and not losing a friend.

Ok, time for another response I guess....

As I've said earlier in this recent spate of postings, I deliberately did not get into analyzing why this accident happened. Perhaps it was out of respect for Dan and Sue, or their friends or families. However, what I hoped for was that by presenting my account, in detail, of what happened (and in some cases where we didn't know specifically what happened, some reasonable guesses as to what happened), that readers would be able to come to their own conclusions about what happened and why. Or, choose not to come to any conclusions at all (I can clearly see that for some people definite conclusions were certainly reached!).

There are many aspects to this story. Only one of those aspects is the clinical analysis of what happened and why, and the judgements that some can come to therefrom. The other aspects of the story, of family, of friends, of courage, of compassion, those aspects are still there. I haven't forgotten those things as I write this post.

Regarding the broken bones thing. I've heard (but of course can find no definitive source, so it is heresay) that sometimes (not often, but sometimes) people fall a fair distance and do not break bones. So that is a possibility. Also possible is that she tried to downclimb partway and THEN fell a little ways further. After seeing this cliff for myself, It may also be that the fall was interrupted by the many short intermediate ledges that exist, thereby preventing fractures. Or, maybe Steve Grant is right, it was a downclimb and then she got stuck. who knows....? (By the way, the 'easy' route down the mountain from near where she was found involves fairly gentle slopes, and no cliffs. One would think that if she encountered a cliff, that she would automatically know that that was not the correct way down, if she knew the lay of the land on that side of the peak).

Let's remember that even though there were mistakes made, that Sue did in fact do something very brave. In summary, people got into trouble (for whatever reasons), and then they behaved valiantly. That fact does not apply justification to any unwise decisions - the two are unrelated.

Regarding people close to them or who knew them who gave them advice about this trip of theirs to the Torngats: They in fact did get a lot of advice, and much of it was indeed very very cautionary. No one can say 'you can't go', because they of course had every right to try to do what they desired, but to say that they did not get cautionary advice is inaccurate.

We do not know what thoughts were in their minds at the time of the climb. That makes a big difference. Did they believe that they were being safe? If they truly believed that, then you cannot really fault them for continuing. Percieving a safe situation can be completely different from the actual, objective reality of a situation. Has anyone here done something where they thought they were safe, only to find out later (either right away or much later) that they had been very unsafe? I know I have (and my account of it can be read here). I've learned from that and I am much safer now. But maybe in 20 years I'll look back again and think that in 2005 I wasn't safe enough. Now, if they (Dan and Sue) _knew_ they were on the razor's edge of safety to begin with, and still continued, then maybe that's a different story.

I've thought of another thing as I type here. The thought is about a concept that Achim in previous posts has advanced, that by 'glorifying' (which I don't feel that I am) this whole incident, we will promote more people to risk life and limb in the backcountry and force people to go rescue them. I can't see how a story about how two people LOST their lives is going to encourage others to go and do the same. If anything, it is a story about how things can rapidly go wrong in remote places, and how it takes a long, long time before anyone can respond (if at all). That's hardly a brochure for wilderness adventure!

Andrew, thanks for the thoughtful response. I know you could have been far more critical of what I said.

You're right, people did caution Sue and Dan, and they had every right to go. My point is one of degree, that the cautions probably should have been more emphatic. The outcome supports this.

I don't think you have glorified the inicident. But I think the tv documentary cast Dan and Sue's actions in an overly positive light. Just what I think.

If they thought their casual daytrip up the mountain was "safe" enough to take so little gear (and the circumstances say that's what they thought), then that, and why they might have thought that, is a lesson that needs to be made clear to people interested in doing this sort of thing. That is the value of trying to be dispassionate when examining the event. Throwing up our hands and saying we can't figure anything out, I submit is a disservice to their lives.

There's a lot of compassionate words about respect for them and their families and friends. This does not have to translate into seeing anyone's actions with rose-tinted glasses. What do we think the dead busy themselves with? We have no idea, but some would have us believe they are like jealous territorial landlords, protecting their fragile reputations against criticism. I think it just as likely, and far more constructive, to assume the glass is half full; that at death we replace ego with altruism, and our greatest desire would be for others to learn from our mistakes.

Here's another thought. Had they succeeded on Mount Caubvik, how would they have fared on Mt. Columbia? Fairweather? Logan? I shudder to think of it.

I too have made mistakes in the mountains that I know I survived only by luck. But had I not survived them, the last thing I'd want is for people to ignore or gloss over my stupidity. Thanks for listening.

Steve, you make valid points in your post. And, as I've said before, I did not make a nice little bulleted list at the end of my web write stating... "Here are the lessons that can be learned and here are the steps needed to maximize your safety in the backcountry". I guess I felt it wasn't the place for it and besides, this has been written about countless times in mountaineering texts and accident compilations, etc etc....

For what its worth, here's what I think can be learned from all of this, in terms of minimizing one's chance of getting into trouble, and, failing that, maximizing one's chance of getting out of trouble.

-Travelling in very small groups (ie. 1 or 2) is not as safe as larger groups (within reason, of course).

-Bringing all essential safety gear is important. And, knowing how to use it in advance. Test and verify in advance.

-Having adequate safety gear to survive the night, or any foreseeable weather conditions, is very important (I stress this myself on hikes that I go on).

-Being mindful of the weather and its effect on the difficulty of the endeavour is very important.

-Turning around even in the face of a desire to continue is also very important.

-Leaving a detailed itinerary, and sticking to a rigorous and agreed-upon

-Have the necessary skills for the terrain you will be traversing.

-Have a very good understanding of one's own personal limits, and stay well within them (especially in a very remote setting). Note - this is very different for different people - what may be close to the limit for person A may be well within the limit for person B.

...Andrew

In the last post I didn't finish one of my lines....

-Leaving a detailed itinerary, and sticking to a rigorous and agreed-upon schedule. Of course, things can and often change on a trip, so this one is hard to nail down completely. One has to be careful of situations where the marines were sent out just because communication was lost because batteries died or something. But, some sort of "if you don't hear from us by X, then assume something is up and please inform the authorities".

To emphasize something you touched on: "Actively look out for motives or agendas with potential to cloud your judgement."

John Howie - THANK YOU for your response to Achim - you said it all... But let me add my two cents worth:

Achim - you make me sick - you obviously have a beef with the government and are taking it out on Andrew, Roland and the rest of the group who did an amazing thing. You obviously have no one special in your life and have nothing to do but bitch about money and the government. Get a life! For you sake I hope you don't require any similar help - 'cause maybe the governement or private search parties won't go looking for you or your body! I feel sorry for you!

Have a good life!

M

Some conflict avoidance guidelines, respectfully advanced:

- explore subjects and positions, don't make personal attacks,
- find common ground and keep referring back to it,
- don't respond right away, to make sure you have an accurate grasp of what was said,
- ask questions to clarify what others are saying and limit your assumptions,
- try to see the issue from the other person's viewpoint,
- ask yourself if you're being territorial/insecure,
- remember that you are among friends here, and that there are always things about our friends we don't like. But that doesn't mean we write them off.
- end of mini-lecture

I have followed this discussion/debate over the past few days and it has caused me to refect on my thoughts since the day I found out that the search was called off for Dan and Susan. I realize that I have spent the past 1 1/2 years desperately searching for some evidence that this tragedy was unavoidable no matter whether they had more experience, had the phone, had overnight gear, etc. I wanted somehow to absolve Dan and Susan from any blame for this tragedy. I sought opinions from experienced mountaineer friends as to whether it was normal or not to carry a satellite phone on a day trip, etc.

Of course, as we all know it is not black and white. It was a combination of, among other things, their inexperience, lack of judgment, and poor weather that led to their deaths. I know they are not without blame. However, they paid the ultimate price for this. I don't believe it was necessary for Andrew to emphasize all the mistakes that were made. Afterall, it was harder to prove that mistakes weren't made than to prove that they were.

Had I discovered that they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, would it have made it any easier to accept? Probably not, but I thought that it would. One thing is certain though. The earlier emphasis in this discussion on the mistakes and waste of resources definitely doesn't make it easier to accept, whereas the W5 portrayal of love, ambition, and courage did help me as I'm sure it did other friends and family.

Today's postings that tactfully make safety recommendations to future climbers so that they can hopefully avoid a similar fate is a very positive outcome of this tragedy and this discussion, I for one will certainly take the recommendations to heart in my own adventures as well as encourage others I know to do the same. Nevertheless, from my perspective as a friend of Dan and Susan's, I needed to get past trying to overanalyze this tragedy so I'm very glad that it was not the focus of the W5 episode.

I will continue to follow the discussion and I hope that the tone of it remains positive.

There's something else that probably contributed to misunderstandings. The mountaineering community is up-front, even merciless in analyzing accidents to determine the causes. Witness, for instance, the aftermath of that massive fiasco on Mt. Everest about 10 years ago. I suspect this is because the activity is so risky, combined with the, I don't know, call it the "quality" of those who take up mountaineering. The self-criticism is an important element of mountaineering safety.

Since Sue and Dan weren't really part of the mainstream mountaineering community, their relatives and most of their friends would have no way to have experienced and understand that aspect of mountaineering. So criticism would have come across as unusual and disappointing at best and added to their burdens.

Well, the message board has certainly lit up recently. I have only one thing to add - Achim, in case you didn't know (and if you did, then this may be of use for others) you can actually rent GPS enabled PLB's (personal locator beacons) for wilderness trips from private sources. You can then post your itinerary with the Canadian government search and rescue people with explicit instructions such as "We have X amount of experience, this is what we are attempting, we are X number of people, if this beacon is set off we are in need of IMMEDIATE assistance", etc., via the rental shop. You can also rent satellite phones. Of course, you can buy both - the price of PLB's is dropping quickly.
So, the service IS AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW - you don't need to depend on a government program to dispense these things. It becomes one's personal responsiblity to make sure you can be instantaneously located and reached (hopefully) quickly if a problem develops. The cost is MINIMAL if you consider your life may be saved.
For our trip to the torngats/koroc river last year we rented from Neptune Marine in Montreal.

>Chris Rush Sat Feb 26 15:32:46 EST 2005

...
>you can actually rent GPS enabled PLB's (personal locator beacons) >for wilderness trips from private sources. You can then post your >itinerary with the Canadian government search and rescue people with >explicit instructions such as "We have X amount of experience, this >is what we are attempting, we are X number of people, if this beacon >is set off we are in need of IMMEDIATE assistance", etc., via the >rental shop. You can also rent satellite phones.

No. YOU can. I've been investigating the possibilities for renting satellite phones since Iridium first went online. At that time, the nearest rental agents were in Calgary, a three hour drive away in good weather. Of five or six I contacted, only one even bothered to respond. He wanted $60 a day, with pick up and drop off in Calgary during office hours.

Things have improved a bit. Now there's one outfit in Cranbrook, BC. that I know of that rents sat phones. Cranbrook is only a little over an hour's drive away. But they only have a few rental phones, and a lot of demand. And it's a big production to get the phone up to Invermere and back. I don't know of anyone locally who rents locator beacons either.


>Of course, you can buy both - the price of PLB's is dropping quickly.

>So, the service IS AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW - you don't need to depend on >a government program to dispense these things. It becomes one's >personal responsiblity to make sure you can be instantaneously >located and reached (hopefully) quickly if a problem develops. The >cost is MINIMAL if you consider your life may be saved.


Seven hundred dollars for a used sat phone with a 30 day warranty, last time I checked. But maybe prices have dropped since then. More significant is the $50 per month flat rate you have to pay, whether you ever make a call or not. There may be recreational backwoods users hereabouts who have satellite phones, but I only know of one owner for sure, and he's a big game outfitter.

As a matter of fact, two years ago two locals who were very much involved in backcountry safety training and rescue were caught in an avalance while skiing. Both had had considerable avalanche training. One was the local Provincial Emergency Program co-ordinator for several years, as well as having an avalanche rescue dog.

He was the lucky one - not just because he wasn't killed in the avalance, but because he wasn't disabled by it. He had a line of sight radio with him and was able to climb high enough out of the valley to contact one of the local heli-skiing outfits on it. If he'd suffered a broken leg, he might well have ended up dying out there too, for lack of a satellite phone. I assume if they were readily available, he would have had one, since he's much better heeled and connected than I am.

>For our trip to the torngats/koroc river last year we rented from >Neptune Marine in Montreal.

Around here, and I imagine it's the same in dozens of similar communities in rural B.C., people look out the window, grab their hiking gear, and head into the mountains for a day hike or maybe an overnighter. They may get out on a dozen hikes in a summer, or be lucky to get in two, depending on the weather, and all sorts of other factors. Not too many people are going to put more than a thousand dollars into buying and licensing a sat phone for such casual use.

I've gone around trying to interest various local shops in setting up a rental program, including the local Radio Shack. The response I got was "you're the only person who's expressed any interest".

So I'm sorry, but I have to disagree once more. There's a big role for government in this area, and they're not filling it. It's their staff and volunteers who have to risk their skins to find people "missing" in the bush. And it's their fragile budgets that will take the hit to find someone who's just delayed, or changed his route when a simple phone call would have sufficed.

So why don't they take a proactive role? They're certainly not shy about getting aggressive with the public over other much less serious issues. No matter how many times I've turned this question over, there's only one explanation I can come up with - improving backcountry communications would open up the bush to many people who don't dare go there now, and the government's backcountry poobahs want to prevent that at all costs, even if it means needless casualties among their own colleagues.

Achim

We have been reading the recent letters to Andrew?eb site, and have no intention of debating with Achim the issues covered. He has after all made his judgment and delivered his unalterable verdict as is his right.

However I do want to tell you that there was no arrangement made with WFIVE as Achim has suggested. We cooperated because we knew that the program was going to be made, and we wanted as much of the truth about Susan and Dan to be presented as possible. We feel that an honest effort was made by WFIVE. They told the story of two adventurous young people without judging them or their actions.

Too much has already been said about two people who are completely unable to say anything in their own defense. This web site seems to be becoming a forum for listing their perceived mistakes rather than a presentation of the events as known.

Yes our kids made mistakes. They should have turned back once the weather started getting bad. If they had done that we would still have them with us. If there is anyone out there who in his or her lifetime has not made potentially life threatening mistakes, then they have probably done nothing, and achieved nothing. I would like to point out that Susan crossed that ridge three times that day under those conditions, and Dan had made it across once safely and where he appears to have slipped was at the bottom of the notch indicating that he made it back down as well. Susan had made the descent past the technically difficult part of the Minaret Ridge. The venture was not beyond their level of capability, given normal circumstances.

We are very glad that we live in a society where people still try to help each other.

The point about their deaths being pathetic and compared to a drunk dying in 2?? water, there is no comparison whatsoever. However. That would be a tragedy too.

Any young life cut off either by accident, illness or even self inflicted is a tragedy.

John and Betty Barnes

P.S. Linda, We were very glad to see your name on this web site. Susan talked about you a lot, and I have wondered during the past year and a half where you were, so that I could get in touch, and tell you what had happened.

Thank You, Andrew, for the story.

I remember hearing about Dan and Sue on the radio that August. It caught my attention immidiatly. I was frustrated at the fact that they had not been found by September. Even after they were discovered I still had many questions about what happened. Now, thanks to you, most of those questions have been answered. It is a facinating story that hits deep inside. I didn't know them but from all accounts they were amazing people and I will never forget them or their story. Thank You

This message is for John and Betty Barnes. Sorry to other readers in advance for sending this message on a public forum (you're welcome to read it if you'd like or skip it) but it's the only method of contact I have to pass on another way to contact me:

Thank you for your PS on your posting to the forum. I'm hope the previous discussion hasn't upset you too much. I was worried about that as the discussion was unfolding. One of the writers put it nicely when he said that it is in the nature of the climbing community to analyze everything (and perhaps for them it is an important way to learn from the mistakes of others. Many will hopefully learn from this and it may save lives in the future). It is clear from this forum that there are many many people who are willing to help on compassionate grounds alone and who will never forget Dan and Susan for their wonderful adventurous spirit.

Initially I found out from Jenn and Natalie in Guelph the day before they called off the search 1 1/2 years ago and had a long talk that night with Jenn reminiscing about our university days and sharing lots of tears. I'm not sure if I put my contact information in the card I sent to you at the time of the Memorial but if so, it has since changed again. I was away on a bike trip at the time of the recovery mission but a friend of mine found an article in a Canmore paper and remembered that I had talked about it the previous year. Since that time I've gathered bits of information from other articles and from talking to Jenn but I was glad to find out about the W5 special and this website. They have helped to answer some of the questions I still had.

I would very much like to talk to Amanda too. As you will recall, she was at university with Susan, Dan, Jennifer and I so we did many things together. It was hard to see Amanda on W5 without the sparkle in her eyes and knowing what she has gone through losing a sister. I understand she has moved back from Australia permanently. I'll leave you with my email on this forum to pass on to her if you could so that perhaps we can communicate that way (lgriding@shaw.ca) and then I can get her phone number.

My thoughts are always with you.
Linda

Andrew great story...so touching.Hope those who knew dan and sue will remember their lives and will retell their story of their lives.has any one else died in these mountians so called the torngats. william t. march 2 2005 11:oo P.M.

What a story, and criticizing after the W5 show, We had anticipated a reaction but not like Achim. I won't respond to his views, but I just hope he has a mother and father and they don't have to go through an experience like that. Sure they made mistakes, we all do, but who are we to judge somebodies, who are already dead and can't respond. Maybe they forgot the phone as they where anxious to make it to the top, or something else happen and we don't know. So many questions and no answers, and instead of looking into all the mistakes apparently done, judging by Achim or even Andrew, we should remember their courage and their love and determination to finish what they had started. We think they suffered enough and let them be in peace.

For the spending, in 2003, not much was done, because of the weather and other facts known only by the RCMP. The hurt we are still feeling will never go away and we want to remember them always, for the time they where on earth, the had showed me so many things , that we are taking for granted, they will be with me all the rest of my life. Thank You to all of you for the support and encouragement you have showed to both families.

We have received so much from all the mountaineers and hikers, they went for the search without complaints like Achim. By the way thanks John Howie, you all have a place in our hearts, and rest assure we appreciated everything you did and take care of your children and hugs them, always.

Gaston and Georgette Pauze

P.S. Anybody who will like to respond to me personnally or e-mail me they are welcome.

Hello, Gaston and Georgette

Thanks for your response. Very gracious, especially so in light of some pretty blunt comments on this forum. I apologize if any of my 'analysis' comments seemed out of line or disrespectful. This was not my intent. You are right, we must not forget their courage, love and determination.

...Andrew

Hi, Andrew, What an amazing love story to tell on the face of this planet. Nothing was going to stop or get in the way of these two adventerous individuals. they were so determined to reach the summit of this sacred mountian top. Their delayed stopover in Nain probably gave them time to hear some strange tales of the Torngats. They were probably warned by Inuits not to go at this time of the year when the spirits of the torngats or more aggresive. Many of our native elders tell stories of places such as the torngats. They warn us of such places and they will only tell it once to a person. Dan and Sue will always have a special place in these mountians. They should rename these places were they were found, where their spirit will remain forever. Maybe so they have tamed the torngats with their courage determination and bravery, thus leaving a spirit of romance in these rugged mountians forever. Maybe this mountian peak sould be renamed mount.. Dansue. Keep this story alive.. 100 years from now tourist and visitors will flock to this mounttian to feel the spirit of courage, determination and bravey left by these two individuals. The two provinces involved will rake in millions of dollars from the tourist who will visit these sites where Dan and Sue were found. This story would also make a great movie and would rake in millions of dollars at the box office. By the way.. they were probably abiding by one of the laws of sacredness, by leaving the sat. phone at camp. I will always remember this story of these two. A cloud forms in the sky it forms what seems to look like the mountian they climed,I somtimes see the Koroc step plainly forming.Or Im walking along and see a snow bank looks exactly the shape of the torngats. When I see these images..shortly after I feel a light breeze on my face. AWSOME story...EH.. When i die I want to meet them So they will tell there story to me william First day of Spring March 2005 3003p.m est

This message is for Gaston and Georgette Pauze, who, in a previous posting, encouraged people to email them personally. Would you be so kind as to send me your email address. You can email me at katie@bossypictures.com. Thank you.

Hello..... anyone out there? Bill..

First, Andrew - Thanks for setting up this excellent page. I have followed with interest the exchange of ideas regarding the tragedy, and, knowing the situation better than most, have the following comments:

Dan & Sue were certainly made aware of the unforgiving nature of the Torngats and the inherent risk associated with their trip. The truth is, nothing anyone said could have dissuaded them from going, and I absolutely defend their right to go. I understand completely the thrill and excitement of going such a remote and beautiful wilderness. T.S. Elliot said "We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

The argument that the dollars spent for search & rescue could have been better spent on devices or government procedures to prevent future tragedies is moot. As long as there are compassionate people in the world (and thank God there are!), there will be people who want to help those in distress.

I am skeptical that depending on the government to protect us would be very satisfactory. To climb Mt. Logan, an expedition must consist of 4 or more climbers, and carry a radio at all times. Each member of the expedition must submit a complete climbing resume and results of a doctor's examination comfirming physical ability. I personally think this is a little over the top. Parks Canada's reaction to climbers who want to attempt Mt. Nirvana (highpoint of the NWT) is to prevent access and try to discourage anyone from going there.

Authorities at Denali National Park will let anyone try to climb Mt. McKinley, but charge a climbers modest fee to help defray the cost of rescues, which will surely be needed. This seems a better idea to me.

In summary, I believe those who love the outdoors and wild places, climbers, hunters, sailors, etc., must be allowed to pursue their dreams - the freedom of the hills. Tragedies will certainly occur, and people of compassion will always try to help. This may not be a great comfort to their famlies, but Dan & Sue lived and experienced more joy in their lives than most others would in several lifetimes. They died doing what they loved.

A grateful thanks to all whose effort helped to bring them home!

Looking to charter a plane second part of July 2005 duration 7 to 10 days looking for other trekkers or climbers if interested;
Air Inuita charter sevice, operates flights between Kuujjuaq, PQ and a gravel bar on the upper Koroc River (known as Korok Ilkalu, location 668148), about 9 miles (14.5 km) south of Mount Caubvick/Mont d'Iberville

Thanks Jack,

You put it very well. It does make me feel better to know that they lived life to the fullest and I would defend anyone who chooses to live their life rather than hide away, too scared to appreciate what is out there. Some people seem to forget about the humanity of the people they are discussing and that they have families that love them and miss them dearly. It is difficult dealing with the loss but sometimes reading peoples comments has been quite hurtful, I loved and still love my sister and Dan and I miss them so much. I can't even begin to express how much bringing them home meant to us and will never be able to truly thank all the people who were involved in bring them home. You will never know how much you compassion and kindness has meant to our families. Jack thank you also for your posting.

Just a short note to say that eight of us (including Bill Pollock) will be flying in to the upper Koroc next month on July 2 for 3 weeks of hiking and paddling down the Koroc River. Here's hoping the weather gods will smile on us during that time.

It's been a number of years since I was last in the Torngats. What an amazing bit of our country and I so look forward to being there again.

As I grow older I feel fortunate to have so many fine memories behind me that I can enjoy remembering over and over again - but at the same time I am bit sad I did not do even more when the body was more willing.

Just a short note to say that eight of us (including Bill Pollock) will be flying in to the upper Koroc next month on July 2 for 3 weeks of hiking and paddling down the Koroc River. Here's hoping the weather gods will smile on us during that time.

It's been a number of years since I was last in the Torngats. What an amazing bit of our country and I so look forward to being there again.

As I grow older I feel fortunate to have so many fine memories behind me that I can enjoy remembering over and over again - but at the same time I am bit sad I did not do even more when the body was more willing.

Dear George Luste.

We are the parents of Susan Barnes, and have just read about your upcoming trip to the Torngats area this July.
Would you please contact us at bettybarnesca@yahoo.ca or johnhbarnes2000@yahoo.ca
Thank you.

There is lot of credit due here.

Most deserving are Dan Pauze and Susan Barnes, whose love, courage and spirit of exploration is to me a model I hold in the highest regard. The strength shown by their families is obviously a trait that runs throughout.

The friendship and support of the mountaineering community is astonishing.

Andrew Alavigne, a full 2 years since the tragedy your site continues to frame for us the perils of what we love to do and the places we love to be. Given our general disconnect from wilderness it is good to have a constant dose of reality to steer by. I like to think that the couple times I bailed out on a misadventure made all the difference - I don't know that for sure but don't have to. Also, thanks for showing me a glimpse of mountaineering life. Regretfully, I used to dismiss much of it as only an adrenaline fix . Personally, canoe tripping works best with my own rhythm. All the best sir.

Why is it I can't stop dreaming of the Torngats now?

At the request of John and Betty Barnes we have mounted a bronze memorial plaque on Mt Caubvick in the Torngats of northern Labrador. The bronze plaque, given to me in Toronto by John and Betty, reads as follows:

"In memory of
Susan Barnes
and
Daniel Pauze
who died on this mountain
August 2003
with love
from your families and friends".

We placed it on a flat horizontal stone slab next to the cairn built in 2004 by the search party on the "upper football field" at the edge of the cliff where Susan was found. (We used an RTV silicon adhesive-sealant that is supposed to remain stable and flexible from -60C to +180C). We did this on Saturday June 9, 2005. As it was, we had to hurry while there and go back down the mountain as more bad weather was coming in from the north. (We thus did not get to the actual peak on Caubvick.)

The "we" consisted of Eric Leroux, Bill Pollock, Andy Williams and myself. Our larger group of eight spent a week camped in the valley SE of Caubvick. Unfortunately during this time the weather was mostly cold, misty and wet at our base camp elevation of about 2,400 ft. It was not typical July weather for northern Labrador. Our first attempt to get to the top was on July 6 but at about the 4,500 ft elevation we were chased back down by cold sleet, snow and wind .

After our stay in the Torngats, six of us continued on a canoe trip down the Koroc River to Ungava Bay. (And the weather improved as it was mostly sunny and warm on the Koroc.)

Hi, George.

Wow... that's great! Wonderful that you were able to get up there and affix the plaque. I can picture the exact spot in my mind right now. Too bad you were there with so-so weather. It is quite beautiful when you have a clear view.

Someday I think I might like to go up again and have a look at it, and remember and think about all that has happened up there.

...Andrew

George Luste,
Good of you to mount the memorial plaque on Mt. Caubvick for the families. You wrote that this was done on Saturday June 9. Please verify your log book and 2005 calendar - June 9 is a Thursday not a Saturday. Mrs. Barnes posted a message here on this forum June 9, 2005 asking you to get in touch with her after you wrote that you were taking a trip to that area of Labrador. Your "first attempt to get to the top" was not until July 6. I don't mean to be rude, but posting a message as important as mounting a "Memorial Plaque" for Daniel Pauze and Susan Barnes from their grieving friends and families, the date that it was mounted is everything to the readers who are following this tragic story on this site.

Sorry. Yes, it was Saturday July 9 (not June 9). Apologies about the confusion. It seems my proofreading skills are abysmal.

If anyone wishes to receive a couple of digital photos (taken by Andy Williams) of the cairn and plaque, please feel free to email me at luste@utfa.org


Our trip time-lines were as follows.

July 3 - Twin Otter charter from Kuujjuaq fly-in to gravel strip on upper Koroc. Eight people with four Pakboat canoes.

July 5 to July 10 - at base camp on first small lake on SE flank of Mt Caubvick. (It took almost two full days for our uphill hike-in)

July 11 - one day hike-out back to Koroc. We start paddling assembled Pakboat canoes next day at noon.

July 13 - campsite at valley from Palmer River.

July 15 - early camp at Korluktok Falls. Very scenic.

July 18 - arrive at tidal rapid on Ungava Bay with plans to paddle to George River (Kangiqsualujjuaq)next day.

July 20 - due to winds and rain on July 19 and 20 we telephone for boat in George River and evening ride to town (it takes a bit more than an hour).

Hi Andrew,

Nice job on the website. This is a very compelling story and almost haunts me on a similar level as the true events that inspired the movie "Open Water". One thing I have failed to pick up (and I must admit that I may have overlooked it somewhere) is:

At the time of year that Dan and Sue challenged the Torngats, what kind of temperatures do you think they encountered, not to mention wind chill factors at the summit? If they died of exposure do you think the potential temperatures were extremely cold such that any suffering was brief?

Eric

Hi there.

I can't obviously know for sure, but from what I've seen of Dan and Sue's photos and from the Rickards' account, it was a sleety wet snow mixed with rain. That leads me to believe that the temperature was probably not much below freezing. So, let's say -2C or something like that. Lots of wind, wet and snowy. Based on the above assumptions, a quick look at a wind chill chart shows that the windchill was probably in the -10 to -20 range (based on the Rickards' account of the winds).

In any case, people have been known to get hypothermia on a +10C cold rainy day in the white mountains of NH.

...Andrew

Thank-you Andrew, for creating and updating this site. I am not an "outdoorsy" person and I only go to Mountain Equipment Coop to purchase plastic water bottles, but I felt very compelled to do a Google search on Sue and Dan after watching the documentary this afternoon. I admire their courage (and all you hikers out there) for doing things I could never imagine doing and choosing to lead extraordinary lives.

I will continue to think of love, strenth, bravery and compassion whenever I think of Susan and Dan's story.

Sitting here at home in Toronto my thoughts continue to drift back to the Torngats and to questions that will never have final closure.

Why go? Most of my adult life (I am 65 now) I have sought out wilderness experiences in northern Canada. One can ask: 'Why? Why do individuals seek out such 'empty quarters' and commit to sometimes uncertain travels?' I take it as given that there is no one unique answer for all of us. But speaking for myself, I think I continue to be driven by the mystery of our reality expressed in words I read as a young student and that have stayed with me my whole life. They were written by Albert Einstein and go as follows:

'How strange is the lot of us mortals! Each of us is here for a brief sojourn; for what purpose we know not, though sometimes sense it.' - and - 'The search for truth is more precious than its possession.'

I am always more keenly conscious of the mystery of my existence when I get away from cities, all our modern distractions and go 'searching' in the wilderness. In this sense my wilderness travels are a spiritual quest that has no end. The search itself is what enriches my life and so is all that matters. The experience humbles me, reassures me and sometimes brings tears of gratitude to my eyes.

Although I never met Susan or Dan I cannot help but believe they too must have shared some of the same reasons when they decided to go to the Torngats and climb Caubvick.

What went wrong on Caubvick? Again I can only speculate and share some thoughts. The hypothermic danger of 'wet cold' cannot be fully appreciated unless you have experienced it yourself (both Eric and Andrew refer to this in their posts above). On both July 6 and July 9, by the time we got back down to base camp from Caubvick, I was damp and wet with moisture and started shivering once I stopped moving. (However I had dry clothes and a warm sleeping bag within reach at base camp.) The sleety wet snow and rain that Susan and Dan encountered on top of Caubvick is insidious. I have found it impossible to stay dry in such conditions. Either the wet snow and rain get through or with rain gear on the trapped perspiration from physical exertion of climbing quickly dampens you. (My experience is that wearing Gore-Tex may slow this but does not prevent it.) Once damp on the inside, the dangers of hypothermia are real.

(As an aside, twenty years ago in March I snowshoed across Labrador with a companion. I recall how 'cold' and miserable our 0C days were on the coast when the air and snow were moist and damp relative to the 'warmer' conditions I experienced at -20C on the Labrador plateau where the air was dry and the snow was crunchy.)

The unfortunate change in weather going up Caubvick may well have caused Dan and Susan to hurry their climb to the top. The added effort would probably increase their perspiration which then hastens body dampness and its vulnerability to the cold. Once cold and shivering, judgment and ability can fade. And unless one has brought sufficient equipment along to bivouac warmly there is no choice but to try get back to base camp.

Dear site keeper and all who call the geological feature resembling a high plateau the "football field". Who is responsible for naming this beautiful and unique feature "the football field"? I know that climbers often name features on routes and it is an accepted subculture right for the first ascent party. I have yet to read any article's published by or for the mountain's first ascent party naming this feature "the football field". The term football field implies it is a place of recreation where humans can play one of the many games referred to as football. First and most recently this mountainous region is the land of the Labrador Inuit, it is unknown, or at least unspoken, if they walked this peak. If they did, it would have been for reasons held sacred to their belief system or for practical survival reasons. I'm wondering...out of respect for the Inuit and the new age colonialists, i.e. geologists and terrain scientists, professional climbers, trekkers, hikers, etc. etc. could you at least suggest that this feature be called what it actually is - a high plateau. Just a thought...as "football field" on a mountain, to me is demeaning, stupid and rather thoughtless. Obviously and most regrettably this is not the place for playing games and really not even the climbing game as the mountain is nothing more than a small trekking peak with a beautiful two step plateau and a mildly spiced approach to the summit. Ya know, the Inuit had it figured out long long ago and some not so long ago (Inuit born in Nachvak Fjord are still alive today). I wonder what would they name the high plateau in light of the changes brought about by colonialism and its lingering effects on their culture and some of what happened on the hill. What of these new attitudes toward beautiful places like the Torngats? Maybe the name for this feature should be "Fleet of Egos Adrift on the Sea of Fools"??? And of this, who would the Admiral, Captains and Crews be??? I guess that would be easy to figure based on submissions to your site and CTV's documentary. Just some thoughts.....

Hi, Klaus

Here's my take on this naming thing you bring up. The name 'football field' sprung up during the course of planning the search operation. It was a way to identify this particular aspect of the mountain, since there was no existing name on the topographic maps. No thought was given to historical precedent, or culture, or colonial influences, or imperialistic despots, or the kitchen sink. We were looking for Dan and Sue, period! There was never any intent to officially label the feature, either.

Perhaps we should have convened a lengthy session on the political, cultural, social, and aesthetic ramifications of whatever descriptive terms we chose to use in our search operations. Perhaps we should have spent time soujourning through the wilds of Labrador, asking elders if they knew of the names of the features on the mountains. Perhaps we should have considered whether our casually-named feature would throw observers and their descendants into fits of despair. Alas, we did not. We did not have the time nor the resources to do so, and moreover we were focused on locating Dan and Sue.

My suggestion is this: if you feel passionate enough about it, propose a name to whatever agency is responsible for labelling topographic maps. I certainly would have no problem with you making such a proposal. If accepted, I'll even update the web page to say (which we called the 'football field') for each reference to 'football field'.

...Andrew

I think that Klaus' concern is over the top a bit. I don't believe that what Andrew or his web site call a feature or what I say or what Klaus says will have a lasting influence. We are not that important.

Go to the Labrador Inuit Association web site and click on their page for the Torngat Park at http://www.nunatsiavut.com/en/torngat.php

The following text is copied from there:
'As a result of the feasibility assessment and Labrador Inuit land claims negotiations, an agreement has been reached that defines a national park area of approximately 3,100 square kilometres. As these are Inuit traditional lands, it was essential that our people have an ongoing say in how the park is to be established and managed. To ensure that Inuit stewardship principles apply, and that that the status of the land cannot be changed without Inuit consent, the area is defined as part of the Labrador Inuit Settlement Area and provisions for it are set out in the Labrador Inuit Land Claims Agreement.'

I have full confidence that today the Inuit will in effect control or decide what the permanent names on a map will be in the Torngat Park.

It was not always so. Historically it was the reverse. Here is an example. Some years ago I and another fellow did a long summer canoe trip that included going from Great Slave Lake to the Arctic coast via the 'Dismal Lakes'. It was a beautiful area and at the time I wondered where the name 'dismal' came from.

I found the answer in a great northern travel classic by David Hanbury, 'Sport and Travel in the Northland of Canada' 1904, page 213.

Hanbury writes:
'In Richardson's time the chain of lakes was unnamed, and remained so until they were visited in March 1838 by Thomas Simpson. That traveller, in his report to the Hudson Bay Company, used the descriptive expression, 'the dismal lakes' and in his book, published seven years later, the epitath 'dismal,' applicable in March, but certainly not in August, was raised to the dignity of a name. The native name for the lakes, or rather lake, is Tesh-i-er-pi, a name to which I adhere.'

Hanbury was echoeing Klaus' concern a hundred years ago. I don't think it applies to the 'football field' today.

I have to agree with Mr. Luste. It isn't important that the team regarded the plateau as the Football Field. I also agree that it's unlikely that future climbers will refer to it as such. And if they do I don't think it's of any concern. I am only an "Armchair Mountaineer" but I have heard the term "football field" used to describe other features on mountains before. In fact there is a place on Denali that some climbers refer to as the football field. I believe it is near the high camp (17,200ft) on the West Butress route.

It is more important that we remember Dan and Sue's story rather than debate the name of a plateau on Caubvick.

yes i agree

wow

yes... i agree that it is very important to remember Dan and Sue, but for them to be remember forever this so called foot ball field should be renamed after Sue. this field is where she made her long last walk. Could it be possible if we refer to it as Sue's last walk field of dreams. I'M SURE as she made her way across this field she had many dreams of making it saftly and returning to save her best friend Dan. I'm sure the inuit people could find a way to say this in their own language Thks for your attention.

yes... i agree that it is very important to remember Dan and Sue, but for them to be remembered forever this so called foot ball field should be renamed after Sue. this field is where she made her long last walk. Could it be possible if we refer to it as Sue's last walk field of dreams. I'M SURE as she made her way across this field she had many dreams of making it saftly and returning to save her best friend Dan. I'm sure the inuit people could find a way to say this in their own language Thks for your attention. With all the fancy words I have reading on this web site one of you's should have no problem with the renaming of this field. Their names must be put on these rugged torngat mountians

yes... i agree that it is very important to remember Dan and Sue, but for them to be remembered forever this so called foot ball field should be renamed after Sue. this field is where she made her long last walk. Could it be possible if we refer to it as Sue's last walk field of dreams. I'M SURE as she made her way across this field she had many dreams of making it saftly and returning to save her best friend Dan. I'm sure the inuit people could find a way to say this in their own language Thks for your attention. With all the fancy words I have reading on this web site one of you's should have no problem with the renaming of this field. Their names must be put on these rugged torngat mountians

This note is to a person named Phillipe, who recently used the feedback form on this page to send me a note asking for map information about the Caubvick/D'Iberville area. Unfortunately, it seems that the e-mail address given to me is not valid - I've been trying to send a reply, but the e-mail always bounces back. If you're reading this, Phillipe, and you still want a reply to your question, then please try to use the feedback form to contact me again with a different contact information (maybe the e-mail address you gave me was mistyped?)

...Andrew

Hi, Andrew -- what a harrowing account. Thank you for writing it. I am doing research on the Torngats and was wondering if you could help me. Specifically, I'd like to know if the temperature on the mountains fluctuates a lot from day to night. For example, in the summer I understand the average temp is about 5-7 degrees Celsius (around 40 degrees to Americans like me). So if it's around that during the day, how cold might it get at night? Any info you can give is greatly appreciated. Thanks. Ashley -- ashcalvin@aol.com

Just saw this story on CBC and decided to search the Net for it. These people really knew how to live.

That was so worth the time to read.

I hope you keep this on your site.

I classify it as "must read" material for adventurous people.

It reminds us of how things can "go bad", and the anguish and effort that people will expend because of an unfortunate chain of events.

Andrew, Thank you for sharing your experiences and this amazing story online. Wow! Congrats on your website.

I'm not a hiker, a mountaineer, a bicylist, a runner, or an outdoors person(basically a couch potatoe). Nevertherless, I can appreciate what your website is about and for whom. I've read through your Torngats tale a few times now, and it still moves me. Through your descriptive text and beautiful photos, I got to know a little bit about who Dan and Sue were as people (with friends and family) and what they wanted to accomplish on this trip. I especially applaud everyone who planned and went back searching for them. For me, this represents a great act of courage and a great love for your "brother". The compassion is felt as well as the need for closure. Wishing you and your friends continued safe journeys and adventures.

is this real or a fake story

Hello Andrew

First off, i'd like to congradulate you on your site and your account of the events of 2003-2004.

I'm actually planning an expidition in the Torngats in the summer of 2009. And as you know, there is'nt a lot of information out there. I've found your site to be very helpfull, and a few others as well ( the canadian national park, and papa bear). But i'm really looking for a few friendly tips and some video support. I was wondering if there is any possibility of finding the documentary that Francois shot, if so where, and if you know about anyother films or video out there.

thank you for your help

Hi, and glad you like the site. The producer behind the video footage that was taken has only released some of the video. The best way to see it is to watch the 30 minute land-and-sea episode about this incident. Here's the link to it:

http://www.cbc.ca/landandsea/archive/2008-mar-16.html

Hope this helps,
...Andrew

thank you very much, anything will help

 Merci pour le partage de cette expérience de vie tragique.

Thank you for making this site where everyone can read about Daniel and Susan. Those of us who worked with Daniel and waited for him to come back will never forget the emotions of that time. However, we prefer to remember their joy for life and their successes, and the picture of their successful climb is our favourite. None of us will ever forget, but now there is this site to pay tribute to them.

Vicki

Dear Vicky,

I still regularly check this site, and just wish to say thank you for still remembering Susan and Dan, it is comforting to know that other people still hold their memory in their hearts.

We have just passed the 7th anniversary of Dan and Susan's last trip.  Her birthday was on September 3rd, so we are marking off the events of the eigth year without them.

I see that the web site has changed considerably, but I cannot bring myself to re examine, or listen to all of the information on there. 

It is enough to say that we still love them and miss them every day of our live

Dear Betty;

I too will always remember my sombre and melancholy visit in 2005 to the mountain where Dan and Susan lost their lives. 

I write today because I was just speaking to someone in Goose Bay who has written a ballad about the tragedy and who wished to contact the parents. If you would like to do so, please send me an email at luste@utfa.org and I will connect you to him.

Best wishes.

george

Hi Andrew,

Just wanted to post and say thanks for sharing this story and pictures.  I found this page when looking up the "highest point in Ontario" and read the 2006 Ishpatina Ridge adventure.

http://alavigne.net/Outdoors/ImageGallery/2006/06-03-IshpatinaRidge/index.jsp?navpage=1

Although the story of Dan and Susan is a sad one, it serves as a sobering warning to myself (and others) who crave adventure.  Nothing of value is without risk, but as Roland demonstrates, there is no such thing as too much planning when safety is on the line.

It's great to know that products like safety beacons are available and more accessible/affordable today:

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442634555&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302700987

I'm glad to have known Dan and Susan through your writings.

Thanks again,

Luke

lukeehann at gmail dot com

I'm not sure what made me search for this website tonight but I felt compelled to revisit it and was relieved that this tribute to Dan and Susan is still here.  Over the years I've thought about them many times and miss them. 

I will always admire their adventurous spirit and each time I think of them I'm reminded to live life to the fullest.

We will always remember Sue and Dan!

Manon

Andrew,

Thank you for putting this together.

I've read through most of the pages and most of the posts.  It is a good read and all points are well made. And this is easily found by anyone searching for information about the "Koroc Step".

The story could have been of me and my fiance about three decades ago although in a different place.  I then had roughly similar mountain experience as Dan (have done Rainier) and my fiance vastly less. I had  some glacier travel and rock climbing up to third class, maybe fourth class - all stuff much easier than climbing up the Koroc Step.  Knew how to ascend a rope if able after falling into a crevasse.

Best wishes to both families.  I hope much healing has taken place in the intervening years.

Please allow me to look at this from a technical rock climbing perspective.  Disregard or delete if uninterested.

From a rock climbing perspective, I saw one reference indicating that going back up the Koroc Step was about a 5.6 in level of difficulty (i.e., mid-5th class by today's standards).  It looks it in the pictures.

Most active folks can climb up 5.6 without much training in climbing technique and training for climbing endurance - I know because for about five years I've helped instruct a multi-day rock climbing class for about 25 folks each year who have typically never climbed.  Most can do 5.6 although many with soreness later. Many can do 5.7 and a few 5.8.

Throw in a long active day, near freezing temperatures, wet / cold rock, boots instead of rock climbing shoes, gloves on the hands, and it certainly would feel desperate to most such folks and even to someone with Dan's experience (assuming I understand).

I find myself wondering what their plan was for getting back up Koroc Step.  Would they leave the rope hanging at Koroc Step or would they pull it before summiting? 

The rope was doubled in the picture so am assuming they had the option to pull it once down.  Or, alternately, use it on the return to protect the first person up.  If they pulled the rope before summiting, they really were setting themselves up for problems on the return (assuming that was the original plan).  Pulling the rope before summiting seems very doubtful unless it was that they unexpectedly felt they needed to return that way after summiting.

If the rope was left hanging, how did they plan to ascend? Belay each other?  It may have been hard to belay from below given friction from the rope strands running over the edge at the top as shown in their picture.  Or would they use the hanging rope as just a hand line on the way up?  Using it as a hand lines seems unlikely to me.  Or attach one's self with a cord friction-hitched to the rope and other end of the cord attached to the harness, sliding it up as each climbed?   Or use mechanical ascenders? 

In any case, it is not hard to imagine Dan going up first, falling onto the rope, and I guess having the anchor fail as the fall force would be greater than that from a typical rappel.  Of course I don't know how stout the anchor was built.   But an anchor of piled rocks that failed would explain no gear left at the top of the Koroc Step ... and Dan down below, presumably injured.

It might be telling to know more about the climbing equipment they had with them.  Belay devices?  To what at the top of the step would / could the anchor have been attached?  Did Dan/Sue know about sliding friction hitches for ascending or maybe carried mechanical ascenders with them? 

Maybe to ... how did the private recovery party thread their ropes above the Koroc Step so they could be pulled from below?  And did the private recovery party run the rope similarly over the edge but not have trouble pulling the rope afterwards?

Of course, much of this may have been covered in side conversations with folks not feeling a need to re-cover it here.

Bill

 Hi, Bill

Thanks for your thoughtful post.   Let me try and answer your questions, as best as I can:

We don't precisely know Dan and Sue's plan with regard to returning via the Koroc Step.  Our conjecture at the time was that they left the rappel rope in place, anchored from the top of the step, in order to be able to top-rope climb back up it on the way down.   This may or may not be accurate: when we got to the top of the Koroc step, there was no anchor of any sort in place.  So, either the anchor failed completely when they tried to use it on the way up, or it blew away or disintegrated somehow during the intervening winter between when they went missing and when we showed up.

Another possibility is that they pulled the rope and intended to climb down the [easier] Minaret ridge instead (and still we have the unexplained lack of webbing/anchor at the top of the step, although again over the course of the year it may have been dislodged or otherwise removed).

A rope hanging from a top anchor could have been ascended, I think.   Yes, there may have been a lot friction.   Perhaps enough to pull out a marginal anchor?   An interesting idea.  

I don't believe they had any sort of cord-based or mechanical ascenders with them.

Regarding our own downclimb, we set up a belay by putting a large length of webbing around a protrusion of bedrock (or it may have been a very large non-attached block - I can't recall.  In any case, it was super solid).   We left the webbing and a rappel ring behind.    I don't recall us having any issue pulling the rope, I believe we ran the rappel ring right to the edge, if not slightly over it, so we would have encountered little issue with pulling the rope.

...Andrew

Thanks for the response and information, Andrew. 

My main thought about the friction over the edge wasn't so much that it directly led to anchor failure, just that it may have made it harder to do the first belay possibly allowing more slack in the rope at times as the climber made progress.  Anyway, if they made an attempt to get up the step, Dan might have gone first, fell onto the rope at some point, and thereby exerted more force on the anchor than it saw when they rappelled, leading to total failure and an injury.  But even without slack a belayed fall onto an anchor, where the rope runs up from the climber to the anchor and back down to the belayer, can exert several times more force than a rappel. 

It is interesting to know that they may not have had equipment to ascend the rope.  Still, your conjecture that they at least originally planned to return up the Koroc Step seems reasonable.  It of course fits with their summiting and then returning to near the Koroc Step.  So, they may have changed their minds on the summit and went back to pull the rope.  Or they may have returned to try getting back up the step using the pre-hung rope.

Another possibility that came to mind was indeed that the rope was left hanging after the rap, and the pack was left at the base of the step while the camera was taken to the summit.  After summiting, Dan fell off the ridge on the way back to step.   Sue then might have pulled the rope, tied it around the pillar (may explain the ad hoc knot if Dan was the technically more knowledgable one), tied the rope end to the pack and lowered the rope/pack to Dan so he could get back up (just barely?).   Some types of head injuries take time to become disabling.

And, yes, maybe any anchor webbing left behind came off later.  I've seen rap webbing I left behind chewed clear through many months later by critters (chipmunk?) - I think it happens when food from a hand gets on the webbing.  In general, this happens more than rarely.

Also, I had an experience once where I hiked into a very large grassy meadow in the dark.   I stopped to set up the tent at the edge of the meadow by head lamp or hand light (can't recall which) - all your focus is where the light shines and not to the periphery.  At one point, I turned away from the meadow and very nearly fell 15 or so feet down an embankment I hadn't seen.  I'd only hiked 3 miles, was in great shape, and wasn't in foul weather conditions.  I can imagine Sue getting to the football field, taking off the harness for whatever reason, letting her guard down a little on the much easier terrain, perhaps in the dark and/or thick fog, and doing something similar.

Well, as many have already said, we'll never really know completely what happened.  But your efforts and the efforts of the recovery party shed quite a bit of light.  And thanks for entertaining a little myopic accident analysis on something not intended for this.

Again, I hope that the intervening years have allowed quite a bit of healing in those close to Dan & Sue.

Bill

I was pleased to see Luke's post (#107) provide the link to the SPOT device.  This is a fairly recent device.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442634555&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302700987

I used a SPOT (for the first time) this summer on a solo canoe trip along the eastern coast of Hudson Bay  (in the Richmond Gulf area). Via the SPOT I was able to send a daily email message to my family saying all was well and give my GPS coordinates.   The SPOT is small, very light and the cost is very reasonable. It also has a "help" signal and SOS it can send - if you have an emergency.

Many years ago for emergencies I carried a heavy aircraft ELT device (starting in 1974 on a long canoe  trip across the barrens). It must have weighed about 15 lbs. Some years later I purchased a smaller EPIRB device for the same purpose. It still was about 10 times the size and weight of the SPOT - and had no one-way email functionality - and could only initiate the mayday SOS frequency.

It is a sad reflection to know that IF there had been a SPOT device back in 2003 for Dan and Susan they could have been rescued.

George Luste

I was interested to read everyone's theories about the planning or lack of it as regards Susan and Dan's trip, and the fact that anyone would think that new devices which have become available since their accident would have helped.   The  weather was stormy and dark, no signal could have got out to anyone, and even if it had, no one would have responed because of the weather.  There were no rescue facilities available for hikersclimbers, and after we had reported them missing, we heard only that the weather conditions were not conducive to searching.  The police on the French side told us that they had searched as far as the summit, which was not true, or they would have tripped over Dan's body.   I would call in the morning and be assured  that a search would happen that day, and they would phone us later.  Invariably, later never came, and I would phone again only to be told that the person in charge had gone home.  

That said, by the time we knew for sure that they were missing, they were already dead so it would have been a recovery, not a rescue.   We would gladly have paid any price for any rescue operation that they put in place, but there was nothing there.   As far as speculating about Susan and Dan's lack of planning, I would mention that they took almost 2 years planning this trip and I am sure that they thought that they had every emergeny covered.

No one will ever know what happend, and it is time to stop second guessing, what you thought they should have done.  They are dead, and we will never find answers. 

Someons mentioned closure, let me tell you there is no such thing, we, thei families  have just had  to learn to live without them.